Pare, alam mo naman si Jakulito Pukisyano Bayagbag eh. Ayaw nun magpatalo sa mga
nagsolong mga MT-Philippines na yun eh at nagkataong ayaw ko rin kaya sige na at
maghanap na kayo.
hay nawala lang ako tapos ngayon nagdedebate na about religion. its a healthy
discussion after all. hay wala na akong masabi ang tatalino kasi ng mga tao dito
eh.
kuya ingram nagpaconvert ka na pala ng religion hay naku sana nga masaya ka na
sa bago mong religion para naman maging masaya din girlfriend mo. sana after it
you see the essence of the religion of yours and im glad you did.
ken miss na kita maglod na ka sa sun kasi ajajaja asan na si jakulito dito?
*wonders*
hi krieg hahaha lupit mo talaga basta religion na ang pinaguusapan say hi for me
sa gf mo. hi din kay lapuk galing mo din pala.
"But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already
committed adultery with her in his heart. If your right eye causes you to sin,
gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your
body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell. And if your right hand
causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to lose
one part of your body than for your whole body to go into hell. (From the NIV
Bible, Matthew 5:28-30)"
"If your hand or your foot causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away.
It is better for you to enter life maimed or crippled than to have two hands or
two feet and be thrown into eternal fire. And if your eye causes you to sin,
gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life with one eye
than to have two eyes and be thrown into the fire of hell. (From the NIV Bible,
Matthew 18:8-9)"
As christians and followers of Christ, will the two of you really do this? don't
you guys dare tell me that once in your life you have never looked at someone
lustfully, dont dare tell me that once in your life you never masturbated, so
you just might as well gouge out your eyes or cut your penises so as to be
devout followers of the teachings of the bible.. ridiculous
_____________________________________
The Gospel of Luke:
There is a serious forgery about Jesus' "resurrection on the third
day" claiming that it was foretold in the OT when it wasn't! Let us look at
Luke 24:44-48 from the NIV Bible:
Luke 24
44 He said to them, "This is what I told you while I was still with you:
Everything must be fulfilled that is written about me in the Law of Moses, the
Prophets and the Psalms."
45 Then he opened their minds so they could understand the Scriptures.
46 He told them, "This is what is written: The Christ will suffer and rise
from the dead on the third day,
47 and repentance and forgiveness of sins will be preached in his name to all
nations, beginning at Jerusalem.
48 You are witnesses of these things.
Luke 24:44-48 says that it is written in the Law of Moses (i.e., the Torah) that
Jesus will die and resurrect on the third day. Where in the entire Old Testament
(not just in the 5 books of Moses that make up the Law of Moses or the Torah) do
you have that?! Show me one Old Testament verse that prophesized about Jesus'
third day resurrection?
-not my own words though..still i looked it up noon pa sa torah kasi nabasa ko
to and i want to see for myself kung wala nga talaga and well, guess nyo na
lang.. my dad does bible study debates with jehovah's witness ingram, they come
here really often
_____________________________-
Each of the Four Gospels portrays a different aspect of Jesus:
Matthew -- The prophesied Messiah of the Jews
Matthew was written for a Jewish audience. It's primary purpose is to prove
that Jesus is the promised Messiah by showing how He is the fulfillment of Old
Testament prophecies about the Messiah.
Mark -- Human Jesus, Obedient Servant
Jesus was not simply God with the appearance of a human. Jesus actually was
fully human. When He became human He left His divine powers in heaven and came
to live among men as a man. (He was able to perform miracles because He was
filled with the Holy Spirit.) It is often taught that Mark portrays Jesus as an
obedient servant, even obedient unto death.
Luke -- Savior of all mankind
Luke was written for a Gentile audience. They were not familiar with Hebrew
prophecies about the Messiah nor did they care about them. One of his major
themes is that Jesus came for all mankind.
John -- God Incarnate
John, the last Gospel, was written around 96 A.D. It's primary purpose is to
show the deity of Christ.
So notice that the earliest Gospel which is Mark emphasized the human part of
Jesus and the last Gospel to be written which is John emphasized the deity of
Jesus.
However, one thing that I cannot understand is that people who read the Gospel
of Mark only knew the more human aspect of Jesus. They barely knew anything
about his so called divinity. They did not know about all the "I am"
sayings found in John. They did not know about the appearance of Jesus after the
resurrection because Mark 16:9-20 is a fabricated passage according to textual
expert Bruce Mitzger in his book, "The Text of the New Testament: Its
Transmission, Corruption and Restoration", p 226.
They would not have known these things until they read the Gospel of John which
came some 20 to 25 years later. However, what if those people died before they
were ever able to read the Gospel of John?
Secondly, what evidence do Christians have that these different authors planned
to write what they wrote for a specific purpose and that they knew others would
write on the other different aspects of Jesus? When you read the writings of the
authors you do not even get this impression nor do you even get the impression
that they are divinely inspired. For instance, lets look at the introduction to
the Gospel of Luke:
Luke 1:1-4
1Many have undertaken to draw up an account of the things that have been
fulfilled[a] among us, 2just as they were handed down to us by those who from
the first were eyewitnesses and servants of the word. 3Therefore, since I myself
have carefully investigated everything from the beginning, it seemed good also
to me to write an orderly account for you, most excellent Theophilus, 4so that
you may know the certainty of the things you have been taught.
Luke is talking ordinarily as if he is just simply some other author writing
another account. He didn't say things like "the Holy Spirit is inspiring me
to write another account to emphasize that Jesus is the savior of all
mankind"
(also, this is pretty bothering)
f Theophilus existed in either the 2nd or the 4th centuries then how could the
writer of this gospel be the same Luke who is supposed to be with Jesus in the
1st century.
Maybe he lived to about 200 years.. ang labo
mga brad sya nga talaga o katokayo lang..tsk tsk
There is no evidence that these authors ever collaborated or agreed to write 4
different Gospels for the purpose that the Christians are claiming they did. It
is illogical, the word of God is supposed to be the same for everybody. It
should be the same message for everyone. You don't go preaching to the Jews a
specific thing like Matthew did and to the Gentiles a specific thing like Luke
did.
-nabasa ko ito somewhere and it really got me, it really sounds logical to me, i
don't think i need to further explain
__________________________----
The Gospel of John:
"The author is the apostle John, 'the disciple whom Jesus loved' (13:23;
19:26; 20:2; 21:7, 20,24). He was prominent in the early church but is not
mentioned by name in this Gospel--which would be natural if he wrote it, but
hard to explain otherwise. (From the NIV Bible Commentary, page
1588)"
They claimed that it was John who wrote the Gospel, but yet, his name was not
signed on his Gospel! How is it possible for us to be absolutely sure that it
was indeed John who wrote the so called "Gospel of John" when
"his name is not mentioned in this Gospel" so we can then take it as a
100% True Error-free Word of GOD Almighty?
When one reads this gospel, he would immediately notice that it was not written
by John himself. Let us look at the following verses from the gospel:
"And this is the record of John, when the Jews sent priests and Levites
from Jerusalem to ask him, Who art thou? (From the King James Version Bible,
John 1:19)"
"John answered them, saying, I baptize with water: but there standeth one
among you, whom ye know not; (From the King James Version Bible, John
1:26)"
"For John was not yet cast into prison. (From the King James Version Bible,
John 3:24)"
etc...
Whoever wrote the gospel, was he appointed or inspired by GOD Almighty? If yes,
then who is that man? It can't be John for it is quite obvious from the above
verses and many more throughout the gospel that John wasn't the original author.
One has to be ridiculously biased and blind in faith to deny that.
So now, what about these most popular verses:
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was
God. (From the King James Version Bible, John 1:1)"
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that
whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. (From
the King James Version Bible, John 3:16)"
These verses were obviously written by mysterious men and not by any of Jesus'
original disciples. Therefore, it is blasphemy to consider such verses as
Divine. Why? kasi its not even the apostle john who wrote it, if it was indeed
the apostle John bakit ganun ung sentences, kinekwento ung nangyari kay john in
a third person perspective, not in a first person perspective that would have
been apostle john's.. labo brad..
merged: 06-17-2006 ~ 01:43am
ingram, i'm not asking about historical facts within the bible, i'm asking about
the historical facts you know regardiing the construction, and the compilation
of the bible as we know it.. kasi ako, logical akong tao, i want to know first
how something was made before i adhere to it, such as the bible.. ako kasi, i
believe in God, and i believe that Jesus existed and that he was indeed a holy
man, i even pray to Him. but i can not completely believe in it kasi nga i
believe it is incomplete, how will we know that whats written in it as we know
it ngayon ang original talagang nilalaman ng mga supposed "gospels",
can you prove to me without using any passages within the bible na error-free
and unaltered ang content ng bibliya..the bible as we know it was compiled by
church leaders at a very tumultous era.. remember that the bible has been passed
on for thousands of years, please never tell me that it is error-free.. errors
and contradictions within the bible itself ang dami its just too many to post,
next time na lang..rebuttal muna kayo
Quote by DarkIngramtungkol sa watawat
thing, nahihirapan lang kasi kayo na tanggapin agad dahil nasanay na kayo sa
ganyan mula pagkabata... ako rin naman, katulad nyo dati, sumasaludo dati pero
di ko alam na mali yun.... nalinawagan lang ako nung uma-attend na ko ng
meetings sa Kingdom Hall... wala namang pumipilit sa inyo na gawin ninyo yung
sinasabi namin, gawin nyo ang ipinasya ng inyong puso na di lalabag sa kalooban
ng Diyos....
mahirap talagang tanggapin ang aral nyo dahil wala naman sa biblia. Ito ay
malinaw na panliligaw at maling pananampalataya.
Si Cristo nagbayag ng buwis kay caesar, nagpapasakop si Cristo sa pamahalaan
kahit na siya ang panginoon. Iba ang pagsaludo sa watawat sa pagsamba sa Dios..
kung sumasaludo ka sa watawat dahil naniniwala ka na dios ang watawat, yun ang
masama
pero kung sumasaludo ka sa watawat dahil isa ito sa utos ng pamahalaan at wala
namang mababasa na bawal magbigay galang sa watawat, walang masama dito.
saan mababasa na bawal magbigay galang sa watawat?
Quote by lapuk kasi sa bible napakaraming
inconsistencies so why debate about it..ako personally lets settle first the
history and the formation of the most printed book of all time, on how it was
constructed and the people who decided on what should be included before we even
debate its content.. tanong ko lang ingram ano bang pagkakaalam mo sa pagkakabuo
ng biblia..and pls i ask you to answer me with historical facts not
passages..
Pakilagay ma naman dito yung mga inconsistencies
para malaman ko...
Historical facts? Magbibigay me ng isang example, alam mo yung Babilonya?
Nag-aral ka naman siguro ng history kaya matatandaan mo naman yun di
ba?
Sa bible, inihula yung pagkalipol nun, tapos inihula rin na ang lugar na yun ay
di na titirhan....
Kung makikita mo yung Babilonya, puro mga guho na lang yung makikita
mo...
Di lang historical book, prophecy book na rin....
saka ko na ilalagay yung ibang details, pasingit-singit lang me sa MT dahil
sa work....
merged: 06-16-2006 ~ 12:56pm
tungkol sa watawat thing, nahihirapan lang kasi kayo na tanggapin agad dahil
nasanay na kayo sa ganyan mula pagkabata... ako rin naman, katulad nyo dati,
sumasaludo dati pero di ko alam na mali yun.... nalinawagan lang ako nung
uma-attend na ko ng meetings sa Kingdom Hall... wala namang pumipilit sa inyo na
gawin ninyo yung sinasabi namin, gawin nyo ang ipinasya ng inyong puso na di
lalabag sa kalooban ng Diyos....
Sinasabi nga na pag nakasanayan na sa kultura, mahirap nang tanggalin, (dahil
ayaw nyo) para rin yang tradisyon na nakasanayan nyo na kaya di nyo maialis
agad...
@rorenzu: Sige... kaw ang bahala. And you have two answers on my little
question, hehehe!
@ishimi: Start na ng klase namin ngayon...
@Sis Ayame: Aba'y syempre naman!
@Ingram: And yet another answer based on the Bible. Oh well, kunin ko na
yan!
@Krieg: Pare, sawa na akong makipagdebate sa religion at politics, paulit-ulit
lang kasi eh. Gawa ka ng interesting para naman ganahan ulit akong
makipagsagutan. Hirap rin kasi na lagi kong iisipin ang pulitika ng Pilipinas
which is already a crap! Sawa na rin ako sa religion dahil dyan lang
nagpapayaman mga tao ngayon eh. Kita mo, kung gusto mong yumaman, gawa ka ng
sekta... maiba naman para hindi na paulit-ulit!
Quote by lapuk
kasi sa bible napakaraming inconsistencies so why debate about it..ako
personally lets settle first the history and the formation of the most printed
book of all time, on how it was constructed and the people who decided on what
should be included before we even debate its
content..
hmm, pwede ba i-PM mo sa akin yung isa sa mga "napakaraming
inconsistencies" sa bible? I believe na walang inconsistency sa bible.
Matalino ang Dios sa lahat, hindi siya papayag na ang kanyang libro ay may
inconsistency.
Ilagay mo ang sarili mo na ikaw ang Dios, papayag ka ba na ang libro mo
mali-mali? PM mo na lang sa akin at baka sakaling alam ko ang sagot para naman
mapatunayan ko na walang inconsistency sa bible.
Quote by lapuk
and to be honest ang weird talaga ng hindi pagsaludo thing. weird dude, kasi in
all dialects in the world magkaiba ang definition pagsamba at pagsaludo..dude
magkaiba sila in all aspects..
yup, iba ang pagsamba sa pagsaludo.. iba ang paggalang sa Dios at paggalang sa
tao. kaya nga since elementary duda na ako sa teachings ng jehova witnesses.
@krieg, hindi naman porke hindi ako fully naniniwala sa bible eh hindi ibig
sabihin nun na hindi ako handang makipagdebate about dun kaya lang ayoko kasi ng
kadebate na puro passages ang ginagamit hindi ung sariling wisho.. kasi sa bible
napakaraming inconsistencies so why debate about it..ako personally lets settle
first the history and the formation of the most printed book of all time, on how
it was constructed and the people who decided on what should be included before
we even debate its content.. tanong ko lang ingram ano bang pagkakaalam mo sa
pagkakabuo ng biblia..and pls i ask you to answer me with historical facts not
passages..
and to be honest ang weird talaga ng hindi pagsaludo thing. weird dude, kasi in
all dialects in the world magkaiba ang definition pagsamba at pagsaludo..dude
magkaiba sila in all aspects..
Quote by DarkIngram
@krieg: sinabi ko nga sa 'yo na basahin mo...
good, to set this straight,
nangangako ka ba na pag nabasa kong utos ng Dios na makipagdebate, aaminin mo
dito sa flip na mali ang aral ng saksi ni jehova? at nagpapalusot lang ang saksi
ni jehova dahil incompetent sila sa debate dahil kulang ang kaalaman nila sa
bible?
merged: 06-15-2006 ~ 08:36am
Quote by Akaiken
@Ren/Ingram/Krieg: Hindi pa rin tapos yan? Iba na lang pagtalunan nyo! Eto na
lang... ano mas nauna, itlog o
manok?
@Akaiken: cge start ka na lang ng debate about our crap government. . . mas
active ka ata dun. all of them are a big crap.
Bumili nga pala si lito lapid ng bahay malapit sa lugar namin... i heard he was
blessed by PGMA to run for city mayor of makati since PGMA cannot control
makati.. what a crap... nakakatuwa puro action stars kalaban ni binay, una si
Edu Manzano, sunod si Lito Lapid... sana next time hollywood starts naman. . .
Akaiken>>>kita? hehe! paghiningi ng pagkakataon!
haha! oo nga pla! may sagot ako dun sa tanung mu,.
kung creation po ang paguusapan, manok po ang nauna!
pero kung evolution po ang basehan, itlog po ang nauna!
Quote by AkaikenHindi pa rin tapos yan?
Iba na lang pagtalunan nyo! Eto na lang... ano mas nauna, itlog o manok? Bagay
pa...
Syempre manok, nung panahon pa ng bible, nilalang ang mga hayop dito sa mundo na
malaki na agad, hindi itlog....
may pares-pares na iniligtas na mga hayop at insekto para makaligtas dun sa
malaking baha....
wala kasing nasusulat sa bibliya na pares ng itlog....
Hindi magkakaroon ng itlog kung walang manok... gets nyo
lahat?
@krieg: sinabi ko nga sa 'yo na basahin mo...
Pero ang tanong ko, ang kinahinatnan ba ng maling debate nyo ay humantong ba sa
magandang resulta? naikapit niyo ba sa inyong buhay ang tamang paninindigan sa
inyong pananampalataya?
alam mo ingram, kung 100% sure ka na tama ang aral ng saksi ni jehova, tanggapin
mo hamon ko, patutunayan ko biblically speaking na payag ang Dios na
makipagdebate.
Pagnabasa ko na utos ng Dios ang makipagdebate ukol sa relihiyon. Aaminin mo
dito sa flip na mali ka.
OO lang naman at hindi ang isasagot.
pag OO ang sagot mo, babasahin ko at
ipapaliwanag sa inyo na utos ng Dios ang makipagdebate. Pag mali ang paliwanag
ko, aaminin ko mali ako, pag tama ang paliwanag ko, aaminin mo naman na ikaw ang
mali
Pag hindi ang sagot mo, hindi ka
confident na tama ang aral ng saksi ni jehova dahil ayaw mong tanggapin ang
challenge ko.
merged: 06-14-2006 ~ 01:13pm
Quote by DarkIngram
Ang mga Jehovah's Witnesses ay nasanay na sa panunuya at pang-uusig ng ibang tao
dahil sa kanilang turo na ibinabatay sa bibliya... Kahit nga si Jesus at mga
alagad nya, nakadanas ng maraming pang-uusig at panunuya... iniiisip ba ninyo na
"out-of-this-world" yung mga itinuturo namin? Yun, ay dahil sa di kayo
familiar sa bible...
Hahaha, wag si lapuk ang kausapin mo ingram dahil hindi nga daw sya fully
naniniwala sa bible, tama naman siya e, mali naman talaga na hindi ka tumayo pag
pinapatugtog ang pambansang awit at ilagay ang kanang kamay sa dibdib. at least
si lapuk alam niya na weird. . . kung usapin biblia ang larangan, ako ang
kausapin mo..
Sigurado ka na lahat ng aral nyo nasa
bible?
Pag nabasa ko sa bible na ang apostol ni Cristo
ay nakikipagdebate, aaminin mo mali ang saksi ni jehova na bawal daw ang
debate?
- - - -
and regarding sa pagsaludo sa watawat... saan mo mababasa na ibinawal ng Dios na
tumayo pag pinapatugtog ang pambansang awit?
pagnabasa ko payag ang Dios na tumayo pag pinapatugtog ang pambansang awit,
aaminin mo kay lapuk, mali ka?
wag ka na magkwento ingram, walang magagawa ang mahabang post mo kung hindi mo
naman tinatanggap ang hamon ko...
magkatuwiranan tayo para malaman kung sino mali. Matinong usapan naman ito e,
wala dapat galit sa isat isa, gusto mo punta ka pa dito sa ayala libre pa kita
ng chicken clubhouse sa delifrance e.
Padaan lang!
Whew! Ang init ng talakayan!
Ang pinakaimporatnte jan mga kapatid is INTINDIHIN ANG BIBLIYA AT ALAMIN KUNG
ANO ANG TUNAY NA ITUNUTURO NITO!
Nandito tayo ngayon para magshare ng ideas at hindi umasta ng
mapanghamon...galit ang Diyos sa mapanghamong nilalang..He hates
competition..
Maaari na man nating idaan sa full at clear explanation ang lahat ng nakangiti..
@ken: ngstart na class niyo? Musta banking and finance..mataas pa rin ang
accountancy pero depende lang yan sa tao kung pano siya hihirit pag naghahanap
na ng trabaho..ako hay ewan, Financial Management Accounting na lang yung
ishishift ko at least advance pa me konti..hehehe..
@krieg: Sinabi ko na nag sa yo na basahin mo... pero ang tanong ko, naikakapit
niyo ba sa inyong buhay ang tamang paninindigan sa inyong
pananampalataya?
Mas inuuna niyo pa kasi na mga add at inc ang makipagdebate imbis na ipangaral
ang mabuting ballita sa mga bahay-bahay...
Quote by lapuk ingram, nabasa ko ng onti
ung post(dunwana finish it kasi abuso sa haba eh..) with regards sa pagsaludo at
pag lagay ng kamay sa dibdib para sa watawat ng pilipinas.. parang ang
ridiculous naman ata nun na sabihing dahil lang sa nagbibigay pugay ka sa
isang bagay ng nagrerepresent sa sarili mong bansa at binibigyan mo lang ng
kaukulang respeto, kapag ginawa mo un, sa saksi ni jehovah eh idolatry na agad
yun.. that is the downright reason why i don't believe in so many groups that
claim they are the right religion , that their interpretation of the bible is
"the" correct interpretation.. come on, think about it, kapag ba
sumaludo ka sa watawat you already comitted a sin, that by doing so you chose to
throw away your belief in God, and in turn give it to the flag.. absurdly
ridiculous.. no offense but to me that interpretation is bull with a capital
S..
Iba kasi yung pagbibigay ng isang respeto/paggalang at pagsamba....
Ang Diyos na Jehova lang ang humihiling ng bukod-tangaing debosyon, wala Siyang
dapat na kaagaw sa debosyon na ibibigay mo sa kanya.....
Ang lahat ng papuri ay ibigay mo lamang sa Kanya.... walang pinagkaiba yung
pagsaludo sa watawat at sa pagsamba sa krus.... ni wag kang maglalagak ng
anumang espesyal na pagtangi sa isang kahoy, metal, bato o tela na ginawa ng
tao...
Quote by lapukthat interpretation is bull
with a capital S..
Ang mga Jehovah's Witnesses ay nasanay na sa panunuya at pang-uusig ng ibang tao
dahil sa kanilang turo na ibinabatay sa bibliya... Kahit nga si Jesus at mga
alagad nya, nakadanas ng maraming pang-uusig at panunuya... iniiisip ba ninyo na
"out-of-this-world" yung mga itinuturo namin? Yun, ay dahil sa di kayo
familiar sa bible...
mali kasi yung maghimagsik ka sa anumang itinuturo at ipinag-uutos ng Diyos...
Sino ba ang susundin mo? ang Diyos o ang tao? Sino ang paluluguran mo? ang Diyos
o ang tao?
Kung patuloy niyong susuriin ang kasullatan, makikita niyo yung mga bagay na
magpapalugod sa Diyos, kug paano tayo dapat gumawi...etc... kulang yung
explanation ko para maipakita yung mga makukuha natin sa bible... marami sila...
magconcentrate tayo sa isang topic... masyadong mahaba post mo kasi...
Quote by darkingram
Nasagot ko na ang iyong tanong, si satanas lamang ang gumagawa ng mga
mapanghamong tanong at gumagawa ng mga kasinungalingan at huwad na paratang
laban sa mga TUNAY na Kristyano.
[sigh]...... walang patutunguhan ang mahabang post mo...
hindi ko sinabing sagutin mo ang hamon ko(ako ang sasagot sa hamon...), ang sabi
ko, "tanggapin mo hamon
ko"
ang hamon ko:
Pagnabasa ko sa bible na utos ng Dios na makipagdebate ukol sa usaping
panrelihiyon... aaminin mo mali ang aral ng saksi ni jehova?
paghindi ko naman nabasa, ako ang mali..
tanggapin mo na kasi, hindi yung dada ka ng dada.
Dito malalaman ng tao kung sino ang tama o mali.. pano magkakaalaman kung sino
ang totoo kung puro kwento lang ang nangyayari diba?
At kung confident ka na bawal ng Dios ang makipagdebate... edi tanggapin mo
hamon ko? para mapahiya ako dito. Bakit ayaw mo tanggapin ang hamon ko? kasi
.... natatakot ka baka mabasa ko ang talata at mapahiya ka....
Masyado kasing makitid ang intindi mo sa salitang "debate". . ang
debate ba ay nangangahulugan ng "GULO".. hindi... ang debate ay
tagisan ng talino at kaalaman ukol sa isang paksa... audience ang magdedecide
kung sino ang tama. . gets? nagiging magulo lang ang debate pag napikon ang
isang grupo.
magpakalalaki ka ingram tanggapin mo itong
showdown na ito? basahin mo ito.
"Magsipagingat kayo, mangagpakatibay kayo sa pananampalataya,
kayo’y mangagpakalalake,
kayo’y mangagpakalakas."
- I Mga Taga-Corinto 16:13
magpakalalake ka sa pananampalataya, kung
sumasampalataya ka na tama ang aral ng saksi ni jehova na bawal ng Dios ang
makipagdebate, e di tanggapin mo hamon ko... ang audience ang magdedecide kung
payag ang Dios na makipagdebate o hindi...
babasahin ko sayo, na mismong si Pablo ay nakikipagdebate.
pag hindi mo tinanggap ang hamon na ito.. alam na ng mga mambabasa na takot ka
at walang paninindigan at wala kang karapatang dumaldal ng mga verse ng bible
dito sa flip...
ingram, nabasa ko ng onti ung post(dunwana finish it kasi abuso sa haba eh..)
with regards sa pagsaludo at pag lagay ng kamay sa dibdib para sa watawat ng
pilipinas.. parang ang ridiculous naman ata nun na sabihing dahil lang sa
nagbibigay pugay ka sa
isang bagay ng nagrerepresent sa sarili mong bansa at binibigyan mo lang ng
kaukulang respeto, kapag ginawa mo un, sa saksi ni jehovah eh idolatry na agad
yun.. that is the downright reason why i don't believe in so many groups that
claim they are the right religion , that their interpretation of the bible is
"the" correct interpretation.. come on, think about it, kapag ba
sumaludo ka sa watawat you already comitted a sin, that by doing so you chose to
throw away your belief in God, and in turn give it to the flag.. absurdly
ridiculous.. no offense but to me that interpretation is bull with a capital S..
Pare, alam mo naman si Jakulito Pukisyano Bayagbag eh. Ayaw nun magpatalo sa mga nagsolong mga MT-Philippines na yun eh at nagkataong ayaw ko rin kaya sige na at maghanap na kayo.
zzt..zzt.. musta na mga tao dito?
ay sus, e ano naman kung mas marami sa kabila, ok lang yun dude..isipin mo na lang mas makulit tayo dito.. napilitan lang ako gumamit ng verses tol..
Patay, si lapuk gumamit na rin ng verses sa Bible. Lalo na pong umiinit ang labanan mga kaibigan!
@Rhea: Hello sa'yo. Musta naman pagtuturo?
@melymay: Welcome to flip!
Guys, mag-imbita pa kayo ng mga Filipino at Filipina na makikita nyo rito. Nauungusan na tayo ng MT-Philippines eh!
hay nawala lang ako tapos ngayon nagdedebate na about religion. its a healthy discussion after all. hay wala na akong masabi ang tatalino kasi ng mga tao dito eh.
kuya ingram nagpaconvert ka na pala ng religion hay naku sana nga masaya ka na sa bago mong religion para naman maging masaya din girlfriend mo. sana after it you see the essence of the religion of yours and im glad you did.
ken miss na kita maglod na ka sa sun kasi ajajaja asan na si jakulito dito? *wonders*
hi krieg hahaha lupit mo talaga basta religion na ang pinaguusapan say hi for me sa gf mo. hi din kay lapuk galing mo din pala.
babye na guys busy na kasi ako eh.
hey, just wanted to join the group
..and i
was kinda invited 
"But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart. If your right eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell. And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to go into hell. (From the NIV Bible, Matthew 5:28-30)"
"If your hand or your foot causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life maimed or crippled than to have two hands or two feet and be thrown into eternal fire. And if your eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into the fire of hell. (From the NIV Bible, Matthew 18:8-9)"
As christians and followers of Christ, will the two of you really do this? don't you guys dare tell me that once in your life you have never looked at someone lustfully, dont dare tell me that once in your life you never masturbated, so you just might as well gouge out your eyes or cut your penises so as to be devout followers of the teachings of the bible.. ridiculous
_____________________________________
The Gospel of Luke:
There is a serious forgery about Jesus' "resurrection on the third day" claiming that it was foretold in the OT when it wasn't! Let us look at Luke 24:44-48 from the NIV Bible:
Luke 24
44 He said to them, "This is what I told you while I was still with you: Everything must be fulfilled that is written about me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms."
45 Then he opened their minds so they could understand the Scriptures.
46 He told them, "This is what is written: The Christ will suffer and rise from the dead on the third day,
47 and repentance and forgiveness of sins will be preached in his name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.
48 You are witnesses of these things.
Luke 24:44-48 says that it is written in the Law of Moses (i.e., the Torah) that Jesus will die and resurrect on the third day. Where in the entire Old Testament (not just in the 5 books of Moses that make up the Law of Moses or the Torah) do you have that?! Show me one Old Testament verse that prophesized about Jesus' third day resurrection?
-not my own words though..still i looked it up noon pa sa torah kasi nabasa ko to and i want to see for myself kung wala nga talaga and well, guess nyo na lang.. my dad does bible study debates with jehovah's witness ingram, they come here really often
_____________________________-
Each of the Four Gospels portrays a different aspect of Jesus:
Matthew -- The prophesied Messiah of the Jews
Matthew was written for a Jewish audience. It's primary purpose is to prove that Jesus is the promised Messiah by showing how He is the fulfillment of Old Testament prophecies about the Messiah.
Mark -- Human Jesus, Obedient Servant
Jesus was not simply God with the appearance of a human. Jesus actually was fully human. When He became human He left His divine powers in heaven and came to live among men as a man. (He was able to perform miracles because He was filled with the Holy Spirit.) It is often taught that Mark portrays Jesus as an obedient servant, even obedient unto death.
Luke -- Savior of all mankind
Luke was written for a Gentile audience. They were not familiar with Hebrew prophecies about the Messiah nor did they care about them. One of his major themes is that Jesus came for all mankind.
John -- God Incarnate
John, the last Gospel, was written around 96 A.D. It's primary purpose is to show the deity of Christ.
So notice that the earliest Gospel which is Mark emphasized the human part of Jesus and the last Gospel to be written which is John emphasized the deity of Jesus.
However, one thing that I cannot understand is that people who read the Gospel of Mark only knew the more human aspect of Jesus. They barely knew anything about his so called divinity. They did not know about all the "I am" sayings found in John. They did not know about the appearance of Jesus after the resurrection because Mark 16:9-20 is a fabricated passage according to textual expert Bruce Mitzger in his book, "The Text of the New Testament: Its Transmission, Corruption and Restoration", p 226.
They would not have known these things until they read the Gospel of John which came some 20 to 25 years later. However, what if those people died before they were ever able to read the Gospel of John?
Secondly, what evidence do Christians have that these different authors planned to write what they wrote for a specific purpose and that they knew others would write on the other different aspects of Jesus? When you read the writings of the authors you do not even get this impression nor do you even get the impression that they are divinely inspired. For instance, lets look at the introduction to the Gospel of Luke:
Luke 1:1-4
1Many have undertaken to draw up an account of the things that have been fulfilled[a] among us, 2just as they were handed down to us by those who from the first were eyewitnesses and servants of the word. 3Therefore, since I myself have carefully investigated everything from the beginning, it seemed good also to me to write an orderly account for you, most excellent Theophilus, 4so that you may know the certainty of the things you have been taught.
Luke is talking ordinarily as if he is just simply some other author writing another account. He didn't say things like "the Holy Spirit is inspiring me to write another account to emphasize that Jesus is the savior of all mankind"
(also, this is pretty bothering)
f Theophilus existed in either the 2nd or the 4th centuries then how could the writer of this gospel be the same Luke who is supposed to be with Jesus in the 1st century.
Maybe he lived to about 200 years..
ang labo
mga brad sya nga talaga o katokayo lang..tsk tsk
There is no evidence that these authors ever collaborated or agreed to write 4 different Gospels for the purpose that the Christians are claiming they did. It is illogical, the word of God is supposed to be the same for everybody. It should be the same message for everyone. You don't go preaching to the Jews a specific thing like Matthew did and to the Gentiles a specific thing like Luke did.
-nabasa ko ito somewhere and it really got me, it really sounds logical to me, i don't think i need to further explain
__________________________----
The Gospel of John:
"The author is the apostle John, 'the disciple whom Jesus loved' (13:23; 19:26; 20:2; 21:7, 20,24). He was prominent in the early church but is not mentioned by name in this Gospel--which would be natural if he wrote it, but hard to explain otherwise. (From the NIV Bible Commentary, page 1588)"
They claimed that it was John who wrote the Gospel, but yet, his name was not signed on his Gospel! How is it possible for us to be absolutely sure that it was indeed John who wrote the so called "Gospel of John" when "his name is not mentioned in this Gospel" so we can then take it as a 100% True Error-free Word of GOD Almighty?
When one reads this gospel, he would immediately notice that it was not written by John himself. Let us look at the following verses from the gospel:
"And this is the record of John, when the Jews sent priests and Levites from Jerusalem to ask him, Who art thou? (From the King James Version Bible, John 1:19)"
"John answered them, saying, I baptize with water: but there standeth one among you, whom ye know not; (From the King James Version Bible, John 1:26)"
"For John was not yet cast into prison. (From the King James Version Bible, John 3:24)"
etc...
Whoever wrote the gospel, was he appointed or inspired by GOD Almighty? If yes, then who is that man? It can't be John for it is quite obvious from the above verses and many more throughout the gospel that John wasn't the original author. One has to be ridiculously biased and blind in faith to deny that.
So now, what about these most popular verses:
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. (From the King James Version Bible, John 1:1)"
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. (From the King James Version Bible, John 3:16)"
These verses were obviously written by mysterious men and not by any of Jesus' original disciples. Therefore, it is blasphemy to consider such verses as Divine. Why? kasi its not even the apostle john who wrote it, if it was indeed the apostle John bakit ganun ung sentences, kinekwento ung nangyari kay john in a third person perspective, not in a first person perspective that would have been apostle john's.. labo brad..
merged: 06-17-2006 ~ 01:43am
ingram, i'm not asking about historical facts within the bible, i'm asking about the historical facts you know regardiing the construction, and the compilation of the bible as we know it.. kasi ako, logical akong tao, i want to know first how something was made before i adhere to it, such as the bible.. ako kasi, i believe in God, and i believe that Jesus existed and that he was indeed a holy man, i even pray to Him. but i can not completely believe in it kasi nga i believe it is incomplete, how will we know that whats written in it as we know it ngayon ang original talagang nilalaman ng mga supposed "gospels", can you prove to me without using any passages within the bible na error-free and unaltered ang content ng bibliya..the bible as we know it was compiled by church leaders at a very tumultous era.. remember that the bible has been passed on for thousands of years, please never tell me that it is error-free.. errors and contradictions within the bible itself ang dami its just too many to post, next time na lang..rebuttal muna kayo
mahirap talagang tanggapin ang aral nyo dahil wala naman sa biblia. Ito ay malinaw na panliligaw at maling pananampalataya.
Si Cristo nagbayag ng buwis kay caesar, nagpapasakop si Cristo sa pamahalaan kahit na siya ang panginoon. Iba ang pagsaludo sa watawat sa pagsamba sa Dios..
kung sumasaludo ka sa watawat dahil naniniwala ka na dios ang watawat, yun ang masama
pero kung sumasaludo ka sa watawat dahil isa ito sa utos ng pamahalaan at wala namang mababasa na bawal magbigay galang sa watawat, walang masama dito.
saan mababasa na bawal magbigay galang sa watawat?
Pakilagay ma naman dito yung mga inconsistencies para malaman ko...
Historical facts? Magbibigay me ng isang example, alam mo yung Babilonya? Nag-aral ka naman siguro ng history kaya matatandaan mo naman yun di ba?
Sa bible, inihula yung pagkalipol nun, tapos inihula rin na ang lugar na yun ay di na titirhan....
Kung makikita mo yung Babilonya, puro mga guho na lang yung makikita mo...
Di lang historical book, prophecy book na rin....
merged: 06-16-2006 ~ 12:56pm
tungkol sa watawat thing, nahihirapan lang kasi kayo na tanggapin agad dahil nasanay na kayo sa ganyan mula pagkabata... ako rin naman, katulad nyo dati, sumasaludo dati pero di ko alam na mali yun.... nalinawagan lang ako nung uma-attend na ko ng meetings sa Kingdom Hall... wala namang pumipilit sa inyo na gawin ninyo yung sinasabi namin, gawin nyo ang ipinasya ng inyong puso na di lalabag sa kalooban ng Diyos....
Sinasabi nga na pag nakasanayan na sa kultura, mahirap nang tanggalin, (dahil ayaw nyo) para rin yang tradisyon na nakasanayan nyo na kaya di nyo maialis agad...
@rorenzu: Sige... kaw ang bahala. And you have two answers on my little question, hehehe!
@ishimi: Start na ng klase namin ngayon...
@Sis Ayame: Aba'y syempre naman!
@Ingram: And yet another answer based on the Bible. Oh well, kunin ko na yan!
@Krieg: Pare, sawa na akong makipagdebate sa religion at politics, paulit-ulit lang kasi eh. Gawa ka ng interesting para naman ganahan ulit akong makipagsagutan. Hirap rin kasi na lagi kong iisipin ang pulitika ng Pilipinas which is already a crap! Sawa na rin ako sa religion dahil dyan lang nagpapayaman mga tao ngayon eh. Kita mo, kung gusto mong yumaman, gawa ka ng sekta... maiba naman para hindi na paulit-ulit!
hmm, pwede ba i-PM mo sa akin yung isa sa mga "napakaraming inconsistencies" sa bible? I believe na walang inconsistency sa bible. Matalino ang Dios sa lahat, hindi siya papayag na ang kanyang libro ay may inconsistency.
Ilagay mo ang sarili mo na ikaw ang Dios, papayag ka ba na ang libro mo mali-mali? PM mo na lang sa akin at baka sakaling alam ko ang sagot para naman mapatunayan ko na walang inconsistency sa bible.
yup, iba ang pagsamba sa pagsaludo.. iba ang paggalang sa Dios at paggalang sa tao. kaya nga since elementary duda na ako sa teachings ng jehova witnesses.
aba syempre ayame loyal..hehe
@krieg, hindi naman porke hindi ako fully naniniwala sa bible eh hindi ibig sabihin nun na hindi ako handang makipagdebate about dun kaya lang ayoko kasi ng kadebate na puro passages ang ginagamit hindi ung sariling wisho.. kasi sa bible napakaraming inconsistencies so why debate about it..ako personally lets settle first the history and the formation of the most printed book of all time, on how it was constructed and the people who decided on what should be included before we even debate its content.. tanong ko lang ingram ano bang pagkakaalam mo sa pagkakabuo ng biblia..and pls i ask you to answer me with historical facts not passages..
and to be honest ang weird talaga ng hindi pagsaludo thing. weird dude, kasi in all dialects in the world magkaiba ang definition pagsamba at pagsaludo..dude magkaiba sila in all aspects..
hehehe, kayo-kayo parin ang nanditoh ah. mga loyalista ng flip. hehehe.
good, to set this straight,
nangangako ka ba na pag nabasa kong utos ng Dios na makipagdebate, aaminin mo dito sa flip na mali ang aral ng saksi ni jehova? at nagpapalusot lang ang saksi ni jehova dahil incompetent sila sa debate dahil kulang ang kaalaman nila sa bible?
merged: 06-15-2006 ~ 08:36am
@Akaiken: cge start ka na lang ng debate about our crap government. . . mas active ka ata dun. all of them are a big crap.
Bumili nga pala si lito lapid ng bahay malapit sa lugar namin... i heard he was blessed by PGMA to run for city mayor of makati since PGMA cannot control makati.. what a crap... nakakatuwa puro action stars kalaban ni binay, una si Edu Manzano, sunod si Lito Lapid... sana next time hollywood starts naman. . .
Akaiken>>>kita? hehe! paghiningi ng pagkakataon!
haha! oo nga pla! may sagot ako dun sa tanung mu,.
kung creation po ang paguusapan, manok po ang nauna!
pero kung evolution po ang basehan, itlog po ang nauna!
gud evening...
wow talaga hanep sa debate dito...
di pa rin tapos hanggang ngaun...
try nio kaya gumawa ng forum para jan...
heheh!
cge gudluck!
MimmY
^_~
may pares-pares na iniligtas na mga hayop at insekto para makaligtas dun sa malaking baha....
wala kasing nasusulat sa bibliya na pares ng itlog....
Hindi magkakaroon ng itlog kung walang manok...
gets nyo
lahat?
@krieg: sinabi ko nga sa 'yo na basahin mo...
Pero ang tanong ko, ang kinahinatnan ba ng maling debate nyo ay humantong ba sa magandang resulta? naikapit niyo ba sa inyong buhay ang tamang paninindigan sa inyong pananampalataya?
Basahin mo na....
alam mo ingram, kung 100% sure ka na tama ang aral ng saksi ni jehova, tanggapin mo hamon ko, patutunayan ko biblically speaking na payag ang Dios na makipagdebate.
Pagnabasa ko na utos ng Dios ang makipagdebate ukol sa relihiyon. Aaminin mo dito sa flip na mali ka.
OO lang naman at hindi ang isasagot.
pag OO ang sagot mo, babasahin ko at ipapaliwanag sa inyo na utos ng Dios ang makipagdebate. Pag mali ang paliwanag ko, aaminin ko mali ako, pag tama ang paliwanag ko, aaminin mo naman na ikaw ang mali
Pag hindi ang sagot mo, hindi ka confident na tama ang aral ng saksi ni jehova dahil ayaw mong tanggapin ang challenge ko.
merged: 06-14-2006 ~ 01:13pm
Hahaha, wag si lapuk ang kausapin mo ingram dahil hindi nga daw sya fully naniniwala sa bible, tama naman siya e, mali naman talaga na hindi ka tumayo pag pinapatugtog ang pambansang awit at ilagay ang kanang kamay sa dibdib. at least si lapuk alam niya na weird. . . kung usapin biblia ang larangan, ako ang kausapin mo..
Sigurado ka na lahat ng aral nyo nasa bible?
Pag nabasa ko sa bible na ang apostol ni Cristo ay nakikipagdebate, aaminin mo mali ang saksi ni jehova na bawal daw ang debate?
- - - -
and regarding sa pagsaludo sa watawat... saan mo mababasa na ibinawal ng Dios na tumayo pag pinapatugtog ang pambansang awit?
pagnabasa ko payag ang Dios na tumayo pag pinapatugtog ang pambansang awit, aaminin mo kay lapuk, mali ka?
wag ka na magkwento ingram, walang magagawa ang mahabang post mo kung hindi mo naman tinatanggap ang hamon ko...
magkatuwiranan tayo para malaman kung sino mali. Matinong usapan naman ito e, wala dapat galit sa isat isa, gusto mo punta ka pa dito sa ayala libre pa kita ng chicken clubhouse sa delifrance e.
Padaan lang!
Whew! Ang init ng talakayan!
Ang pinakaimporatnte jan mga kapatid is INTINDIHIN ANG BIBLIYA AT ALAMIN KUNG ANO ANG TUNAY NA ITUNUTURO NITO!
Nandito tayo ngayon para magshare ng ideas at hindi umasta ng mapanghamon...galit ang Diyos sa mapanghamong nilalang..He hates competition..
Maaari na man nating idaan sa full at clear explanation ang lahat ng nakangiti..
@ken: ngstart na class niyo? Musta banking and finance..mataas pa rin ang accountancy pero depende lang yan sa tao kung pano siya hihirit pag naghahanap na ng trabaho..ako hay ewan, Financial Management Accounting na lang yung ishishift ko at least advance pa me konti..hehehe..
@krieg: Sinabi ko na nag sa yo na basahin mo... pero ang tanong ko, naikakapit niyo ba sa inyong buhay ang tamang paninindigan sa inyong pananampalataya?
Mas inuuna niyo pa kasi na mga add at inc ang makipagdebate imbis na ipangaral ang mabuting ballita sa mga bahay-bahay...
Iba kasi yung pagbibigay ng isang respeto/paggalang at pagsamba....
Ang Diyos na Jehova lang ang humihiling ng bukod-tangaing debosyon, wala Siyang dapat na kaagaw sa debosyon na ibibigay mo sa kanya.....
Ang lahat ng papuri ay ibigay mo lamang sa Kanya.... walang pinagkaiba yung pagsaludo sa watawat at sa pagsamba sa krus.... ni wag kang maglalagak ng anumang espesyal na pagtangi sa isang kahoy, metal, bato o tela na ginawa ng tao...
Ang mga Jehovah's Witnesses ay nasanay na sa panunuya at pang-uusig ng ibang tao dahil sa kanilang turo na ibinabatay sa bibliya... Kahit nga si Jesus at mga alagad nya, nakadanas ng maraming pang-uusig at panunuya... iniiisip ba ninyo na "out-of-this-world" yung mga itinuturo namin? Yun, ay dahil sa di kayo familiar sa bible...
mali kasi yung maghimagsik ka sa anumang itinuturo at ipinag-uutos ng Diyos... Sino ba ang susundin mo? ang Diyos o ang tao? Sino ang paluluguran mo? ang Diyos o ang tao?
Kung patuloy niyong susuriin ang kasullatan, makikita niyo yung mga bagay na magpapalugod sa Diyos, kug paano tayo dapat gumawi...etc... kulang yung explanation ko para maipakita yung mga makukuha natin sa bible... marami sila...
@rorenzu: Gusto mo kita tayu minsan? Ala lang, hehehe!
@Ren/Ingram/Krieg: Hindi pa rin tapos yan? Iba na lang pagtalunan nyo! Eto na lang... ano mas nauna, itlog o manok? Bagay pa...
Nga pala guys, ano ingles ng tagalog?
hi everyone...
di pa rin ba tapos ang debate d2?
nwei cno pong pupunta sa inyo sa toycon?
i'll be there so kung pupunta kau txt me
lng po d2----> 09229200610
at magpakilala po kau ha...^_~
cge pow...
as alwayz,
MimmY
^_~
magconcentrate tayo sa isang topic... masyadong mahaba post mo kasi...
[sigh]...... walang patutunguhan ang mahabang post mo...
hindi ko sinabing sagutin mo ang hamon ko(ako ang sasagot sa hamon...), ang sabi ko, "tanggapin mo hamon ko"
ang hamon ko:
Pagnabasa ko sa bible na utos ng Dios na makipagdebate ukol sa usaping panrelihiyon... aaminin mo mali ang aral ng saksi ni jehova?
paghindi ko naman nabasa, ako ang mali..
tanggapin mo na kasi, hindi yung dada ka ng dada.
Dito malalaman ng tao kung sino ang tama o mali.. pano magkakaalaman kung sino ang totoo kung puro kwento lang ang nangyayari diba?
At kung confident ka na bawal ng Dios ang makipagdebate... edi tanggapin mo hamon ko? para mapahiya ako dito. Bakit ayaw mo tanggapin ang hamon ko? kasi .... natatakot ka baka mabasa ko ang talata at mapahiya ka....
Masyado kasing makitid ang intindi mo sa salitang "debate". . ang debate ba ay nangangahulugan ng "GULO".. hindi... ang debate ay tagisan ng talino at kaalaman ukol sa isang paksa... audience ang magdedecide kung sino ang tama. . gets? nagiging magulo lang ang debate pag napikon ang isang grupo.
magpakalalaki ka ingram tanggapin mo itong showdown na ito? basahin mo ito.
"Magsipagingat kayo, mangagpakatibay kayo sa pananampalataya, kayo’y mangagpakalalake, kayo’y mangagpakalakas."
- I Mga Taga-Corinto 16:13
magpakalalake ka sa pananampalataya, kung sumasampalataya ka na tama ang aral ng saksi ni jehova na bawal ng Dios ang makipagdebate, e di tanggapin mo hamon ko... ang audience ang magdedecide kung payag ang Dios na makipagdebate o hindi...
babasahin ko sayo, na mismong si Pablo ay nakikipagdebate.
pag hindi mo tinanggap ang hamon na ito.. alam na ng mga mambabasa na takot ka at walang paninindigan at wala kang karapatang dumaldal ng mga verse ng bible dito sa flip...
ingram, nabasa ko ng onti ung post(dunwana finish it kasi abuso sa haba eh..) with regards sa pagsaludo at pag lagay ng kamay sa dibdib para sa watawat ng pilipinas.. parang ang ridiculous naman ata nun na sabihing dahil lang sa nagbibigay pugay ka sa
isang bagay ng nagrerepresent sa sarili mong bansa at binibigyan mo lang ng kaukulang respeto, kapag ginawa mo un, sa saksi ni jehovah eh idolatry na agad yun.. that is the downright reason why i don't believe in so many groups that claim they are the right religion , that their interpretation of the bible is "the" correct interpretation.. come on, think about it, kapag ba sumaludo ka sa watawat you already comitted a sin, that by doing so you chose to throw away your belief in God, and in turn give it to the flag.. absurdly ridiculous.. no offense but to me that interpretation is bull with a capital S..