yup, i mean deviantart...
members are the one who live up forum, so it's sort of 'no members=no forum'.
thus, we can't argue much about their treads. moreover, since MT is
international, and members come from different background, anything could happen
endlessly.
i guess you are right. i don't see almost 414,045 members. mostly, total online
i see everyday are just hundreds, very much less. but since DA is also operating
commercially, that explains its larger total members, in contrast of MT's
non-profit way.
talking about policy-violated posts, i was thinking if getting their
co-operation would be better, that is, any reported policy-violated posts will
get double credits or more. because what we are also lacking here is many of
these useless posts go unreported, thus ensuring flaming.
and since the expiry date for treads is 4 weeks old, i guess we need to extend
it to 10 weeks or more. otherwise, we will see repeated topics every month,
especially the religion ones
_____________________
aside, i guess this group need to be noticed more..i mean publicized so, is it
alright to affiliate with other groups, say, anime groups, kuroimisa?
One backlash of MT is that the credit system requires members to be active to
get credits and in turn download which is the only thing some people are here
for.
I'll be honest and say I lost faith in the forums a while ago, also being a mod
there's a feeling there are certain expectations of me. Do members want to see
mods in the forums?
The problem is it's a hard thing to solve. The forums are constantly evolving as
members come and go so there's little to be achieved through education, by the
time people are educated they've been replaced. The other scenario is we place
down heavier expectations on each forum but this again can push to much into
freedom of speech and also the same expectations can't really be placed on 13
year olds as well as 25 year olds.
(being summoned away now, might add more later)
I've never really visited the dA forums (assuming you meant deviantART), but I
know for a fact that a lot of their comments are a lot shorter and a lot of what
we consider as being spam (just an emoticon). Their forums though are probably
more active because they have far more members (and active ones, at that) on the
site. I dunno- I've never really seen any site with good forums. It sounds a bit
harsh or weird putting it that way, but there's the concept of what we find is a
good forum- great discussion, lots of people talking, or matching your personal
interests?
I guess a lot of the forums has to do with the members here on Minitokyo. A
forum is really what the people make it, and what the people want the forum to
be. So in a way, it sort of reflects perhaps a slight majority wants to talk
about.
it seems like until now there's no alternative solution for that. but i wonder
is there any other websites that has similar forums better than MT (maybe DA?) i
believe certain forums have a better idea to this.
if none, we might as well close such old discussion in future and stick to usual
routine.
lol.....i am more like repeating history..being 30+ weeks old member has made me
lost in history...
There was talk of highlighted threads. In fact I think I might have mentioned
that. Or maybe someone else did. Meh- but it was basically putting them on the
front page selectively so that you don't get random threads like "WHAT
SHOULD I WEAR TODAY".
Basically the idea never got through because it's essentially very hard to
highlight a thread. What constitutes a highlight for a thread? Wonderful use of
language? A great first post?
What if after the first post there is a terrible discussion?
You highlight because of the discussion?
What is considered to be significant?
Basically the forums are so subjective to the point you can't control any of it.
It's easier with artworks because you judge the artwork in terms of concept,
technicality, aestetics, effort.
With threads though, it's not just the first post, but every single post after
that so it depends a lot on who posts in that thread.
Quote by shinsengumiWhoa. Activity,
and quite a bit of it too! I'm so glad that there are those of you who are
dedicated enough to step in and keep things going even after I've become
inactive.
Thanks, and keep up the good work!
P.S. For the record, my signature is two lines of text followed by one blank
line and another line of text and it
displays as such on my monitor, so it technically does follow the guidelines
^_^
you're welcome ^^ thanks for establishing such inspiring group.
let your legacy go on! lol~
___________________________________
for the sig guidelines, it's not the monitor problem, but i was wondering if
double 2-line text, added with a space, will be 5 lines already?
merged: 04-25-2007 ~ 09:58am
i didn't know there are some old books found deep somewhere in the library
*brushing away dusts*
and i guess what i said in a few posts here have been mentioned since 'ancient'
times.
some of these are timeless treads ever created. these should be keep in eternal
records for all to know (especially the new members)
in the first tread, (not wishing to bump in..) i wonder if the idea of having a
separate forum for chosen [highlighted] treads works wonder or not? any
disadvantage with that if suggested?
somehow, i assume (obviously~) mods' forum is the most mature though
emmm....shall this old deletion complaint be moved? ^^" Deleted
Wallpaper
Whoa. Activity, and quite a bit of it too! I'm so glad that there are those of
you who are dedicated enough to step in and keep things going even after I've
become inactive.
Thanks, and keep up the good work!
P.S. For the record, my signature is two lines of text followed by one blank
line and another line of text and it
displays as such on my monitor, so it technically does follow the guidelines ^_^
So I assume it will be a banner and avatar for the group
Alrighty. After Friday I will have a bit of time to type things up (I will draft
it tonight and slowly work on it).
Then we'll get things rolling ^_^
And the fact that we have just conversations about Mt in the guestbook just
right now is pretty good- even though it's a small one, better than no posts in
10 weeks at a time ^__^
generally, people around here are mostly interested in wallies and aren't keen
on matters to improve MT. some common excuse is "we are here just for
fun," and won't give a thought about problems hanging around. i guess that
already explains why old problems are still at large. only members who realize
the importance of this and that may voice out some concern.
yup, language too are among the main factor that's hindering any participation
in forum. i've a friend who though speaks a considerable good english, but still
find those opinions posted there too difficult to reply.
this makes nearly the whole issue sounded like 'forum is for elites'. what's
more, i find many sections getting boring because there's no new (different from
others) topics. it's like repeated programs in TV.
and still, "we are here just for fun," will remain. because since MT
caters to all age internationally, anything can happen. every human has
different attitude. it's not like running a country, where only elected ones are
chosen to be part of it.
____________________________________-
but, naturally, people will work out this matter if there's something in return- that's the human nature.
so, if there's a big reward, more people will participate in this hunt. say,
double credit rewards for spams and so on, whereas 4 times credit rewards (so
that members will have another half to download in order to check for low
quality images).
well, go ahead with the contest. but first, make an announcement to see if there
are other more opinions
we need to gather more ideas
Forums will always be forums, no matter how we try to regulate it. The spam will
always be there, the comparison threads of favourites which most probably
generates meaningless discussion will be the source of the endless yapping and
high reply rates. Sad, but true.
Recognition to the contest wise: perhaps the winner could put up a title in the
siggy or something?
The forum always had problems because it's very difficult to balance out between
"quantity vs quality".
While you can have very slow but wholesome discussion on one thread, that means
lesser activity. A lot of the members' first language is not english either (and
even for those who are native speakers), they might lose interest, not
understand, or just are interested in other things.
So you are more interested in quantity- a variety of threads to post on and to
generate credits and posts very quickly- the threads and forum gets more
dynamic, and it's stimulating.
When I first was active in the community, ironically, it was by spamming in the
"Chat Lounge" which used to be called the "spam lounge" I met a lot
of friends in there- which is why it's there.
But yeah at the same time, our forums arent' exactly moving at a rapid rate
either- and some of the threads are seriously un-cool if I may use that, in the
sense that they are dupes and people have obviously not searched or read the FAQ
/ policy about "fave" threads and stuff like that. Not to mention
people still bump very old threads.
So yep, kokuyu, you're completely right about the forums being of more concern
than the gallery. But the problem about the forum and the gallery are very
similar- I find the quality of the artworks being submitted has been relatively
higher than before, but the majority of them are of average quality, while the
really good works (which are rare) are of exceptional quality. I guess the same
thing applies for the forum.
Unfortunately though, unlike the gallery, a forum cannot have a Sandbox. In
fact, it's not as easy to improve the quality of posts in comparison to a skill
or a technique you do hands on with on an image editting program. I guess the
more you write the better you get- but most aren't willing to do that- or they
don't realise it.
Later today I'll add on "Stop-rippers" to the page, and drop them a
post.
More talk is needed about a banner and avatar contest (and spread the word out,
too). We'll need some sort of recognition for the winner which needs to be
sorted out, too.
After that, we'll be up and rolling *does a
happy dance*
yup, agree too. there are more to know outside the world >____>"
in fact this is an open group-the same way MT is open internationally, not
restricted by certain common interests...
did we left out http://stoprippers.minitokyo.net/ ?
before CSI-MT fits the purging list, we better cook up something there first. i
guess the main problem nowadays is forum
thing rather than wallies- commonly
wow~ O__O lower status mortals more active than admin.....that looks different
from government administration
and i think he left out the new groups' frozen Statistics. but i'm more amused
when this group has no gallery section, yet WOW..... invisible 448 items.....
Well, I guess CSI-Minitokyo was one of those groups created when we really
needed reports for wallpapers and rips of anything in general. As I mentioned
earlier, there are fewer reports on wallpapers (just as a general trend- not too
sure why) so .... yeah. But we'll keep them affiliated because they linked us
I guess it'll have to be a competition beyond just the group
Last but not least, I've mentioned the art page and the moderators' names for
the past... 3 months and left it on Sheq's to do list.
As it seems hosting an inter-group contest is unlikely to yield the desired
results, therefore including outside members may seem to be the only option.
HOWEVER! If that were to be, it would be best to give a large and proper
credentials to that person.
I'm very sure that there are many out there who are more than willing to
participate.
And uh, I think that CSI is already outta comission, so I'm not too sure if it
is relevant anymore.
the bad news i have here immediately is i don't have photoshop
you got the point right to the facts. i'm not sure if there had been any
announcement in this group, but we really tell the 'activeness' of members from
how many respond posts.
maybe we can ask them through announcement. i can't think of anything yet since
there are setbacks
btw, what happened to CSI-MT? it has bound to be dead, sadly
*rubs eyes* shyxsakura had already retired..why is she still working in anime
wallie section?
as for a banner and avatar contest, that would work, however we will need to
consider who's participating- only C-C members or more than that? Because from
the list of the members we have, we have a few artists (though not many) and
many seem content to be sitting "active" yet inactive at the same time
with probably lower participation levels than before.
maybe there's a need to update the clarification of signature texts' lines.
merged: 04-11-2007 ~ 09:49am
eh, did you squash shin's sig just now, misa?
Errr.... confusing though.....
supposed we can organize a contest that involve members' participation, such as banner/avatar-making competition.
that way we can keep this group from days of silent
Then after seeing shin's sig, I don't actually know if we count empty lines or
not '
It is technically 4 lines with a space But
to be consistent... >.>
the latter one is obviously inactive, which could be deleted. what do you think?
merged: 04-10-2007 ~ 09:37am
Quote by kuroimisaActually I was
thinking about what a nice logo would be and the easiest thing I could think of
was 2 people holding hands. I vectored the hands off an Ai Yazawa scan I
submitted about a month ago (more scans to come, btw when I get
more time this week ) and well, yeah~ I didn't know the Macca one was so similar
I would say yes, the spaces in between the lines are lines- yeah? They'd count.
As for removing the inactive 20, well, I guess some of them might be active one
day (well I know for a fact some really won't) but I don't think it'll be of any
harm to keep them there. If we remove them, then there's no point in keeping the
member roster on the page... but it's ultimately a group decision, I suppose-
I'm not really in charge
I'm just the hired casual page cleaner
I don't really know if we want a group skin- again this is a group decision depends on
how many people are still on dialup and so forth-
if the space between texts counts, then Shinsengumi's sig is questionable
Quote: s h i n s e n g u m i
Minitokyo Moderator Emeritus
Do not expect to be applauded when you do the
right thing, and do not expect to be forgiven when you err, but even your
enemies will respect commitment, and a conscience at peace is worth a thousand
tainted victories.
maybe group skin is not needed now, since all-important is contents here. we
need to enrich that
Actually I was thinking about what a nice logo would be and the easiest thing I
could think of was 2 people holding hands. I vectored the hands off an Ai Yazawa
scan I submitted about a month ago (more scans to come, btw when I get
more time this week ) and well, yeah~ I didn't know the Macca one was so similar
I would say yes, the spaces in between the lines are lines- yeah? They'd count.
As for removing the inactive 20, well, I guess some of them might be active one
day (well I know for a fact some really won't) but I don't think it'll be of any
harm to keep them there. If we remove them, then there's no point in keeping the
member roster on the page... but it's ultimately a group decision, I suppose-
I'm not really in charge
I'm just the hired casual page cleaner
I don't really know if we want a group skin- again this is a group decision depends on
how many people are still on dialup and so forth-
bwahaha......did you 'accidentally' dig your psychic powers to create that logo
(when it closely resembles McDonald's charity)?
maybe it's time to warn or remove the inactive 20, because they seem like going
to no longer fit this group's objective. (gomen nasai for being meanie. but
really, this group needs update refurbishment for strengthening its purpose
too)
hmmm...do we need a group page skin too, aside from banner and avatar?
so, the sig's lines include the space between text too?
LOL I didn't realise it looked the McDonald's thing ahahahah
*rolls around laughing*
I'll go ahead and remove that sig That is
more than 4 lines- err- actually, I'll just squash it to 4 lines
From that list, there are 20 members missing because they are probably inactive.
The list from the very beginning was a selctive list of those who were (most)
helpful and active in the community- as far as I know, anyway.
hmm.....
yup, i mean deviantart...
members are the one who live up forum, so it's sort of 'no members=no forum'. thus, we can't argue much about their treads. moreover, since MT is international, and members come from different background, anything could happen endlessly.
i guess you are right. i don't see almost 414,045 members. mostly, total online i see everyday are just hundreds, very much less. but since DA is also operating commercially, that explains its larger total members, in contrast of MT's non-profit way.
talking about policy-violated posts, i was thinking if getting their co-operation would be better, that is, any reported policy-violated posts will get double credits or more. because what we are also lacking here is many of these useless posts go unreported, thus ensuring flaming.
and since the expiry date for treads is 4 weeks old, i guess we need to extend it to 10 weeks or more. otherwise, we will see repeated topics every month, especially the religion ones
_____________________
aside, i guess this group need to be noticed more..i mean publicized
so, is it
alright to affiliate with other groups, say, anime groups, kuroimisa?
One backlash of MT is that the credit system requires members to be active to get credits and in turn download which is the only thing some people are here for.
I'll be honest and say I lost faith in the forums a while ago, also being a mod there's a feeling there are certain expectations of me. Do members want to see mods in the forums?
The problem is it's a hard thing to solve. The forums are constantly evolving as members come and go so there's little to be achieved through education, by the time people are educated they've been replaced. The other scenario is we place down heavier expectations on each forum but this again can push to much into freedom of speech and also the same expectations can't really be placed on 13 year olds as well as 25 year olds.
(being summoned away now, might add more later)
I've never really visited the dA forums (assuming you meant deviantART), but I know for a fact that a lot of their comments are a lot shorter and a lot of what we consider as being spam (just an emoticon). Their forums though are probably more active because they have far more members (and active ones, at that) on the site. I dunno- I've never really seen any site with good forums. It sounds a bit harsh or weird putting it that way, but there's the concept of what we find is a good forum- great discussion, lots of people talking, or matching your personal interests?
I guess a lot of the forums has to do with the members here on Minitokyo. A forum is really what the people make it, and what the people want the forum to be. So in a way, it sort of reflects perhaps a slight majority wants to talk about.
it seems like until now there's no alternative solution for that. but i wonder is there any other websites that has similar forums better than MT (maybe DA?) i believe certain forums have a better idea to this.
if none, we might as well close such old discussion in future and stick to usual routine.
lol.....i am more like repeating history..being 30+ weeks old member has made me lost in history...
kokuyu-
There was talk of highlighted threads. In fact I think I might have mentioned that. Or maybe someone else did. Meh- but it was basically putting them on the front page selectively so that you don't get random threads like "WHAT SHOULD I WEAR TODAY".
Basically the idea never got through because it's essentially very hard to highlight a thread. What constitutes a highlight for a thread? Wonderful use of language? A great first post?
What if after the first post there is a terrible discussion?
You highlight because of the discussion?
What is considered to be significant?
Basically the forums are so subjective to the point you can't control any of it. It's easier with artworks because you judge the artwork in terms of concept, technicality, aestetics, effort.
With threads though, it's not just the first post, but every single post after that so it depends a lot on who posts in that thread.
Either way, it's just too hard
merged: 04-25-2007 ~ 11:24am
PS: moved
you're welcome ^^ thanks for establishing such inspiring group.
let your legacy go on! lol~
___________________________________
for the sig guidelines, it's not the monitor problem, but i was wondering if double 2-line text, added with a space, will be 5 lines already?
merged: 04-25-2007 ~ 09:58am
i didn't know there are some old books found deep somewhere in the library *brushing away dusts*
and i guess what i said in a few posts here have been mentioned since 'ancient' times.
some of these are timeless treads ever created. these should be keep in eternal records for all to know (especially the new members)
#> Problems with Minitokyo and How to Address Them: a Discussion
#> What's happened to Minitokyo?
#> Work Group on Minitokyo Virtual Working Paper/s
#> Community: an open letter from your Forum Moderator
in the first tread, (not wishing to bump in..) i wonder if the idea of having a separate forum for chosen [highlighted] treads works wonder or not? any disadvantage with that if suggested?
somehow, i assume (obviously~) mods' forum is the most mature though
emmm....shall this old deletion complaint be moved? ^^" Deleted Wallpaper
Whoa. Activity, and quite a bit of it too! I'm so glad that there are those of you who are dedicated enough to step in and keep things going even after I've become inactive.
Thanks, and keep up the good work!
P.S. For the record, my signature is two lines of text followed by one blank line and another line of text and it displays as such on my monitor, so it technically does follow the guidelines ^_^
I'll be looking forward to it, though I'll probably be just a by-stander
Its also really nice to know that a group can be technically revived by 3 members
So I assume it will be a banner and avatar for the group
Alrighty. After Friday I will have a bit of time to type things up (I will draft it tonight and slowly work on it).
Then we'll get things rolling ^_^
And the fact that we have just conversations about Mt in the guestbook just right now is pretty good- even though it's a small one, better than no posts in 10 weeks at a time ^__^
generally, people around here are mostly interested in wallies and aren't keen on matters to improve MT. some common excuse is "we are here just for fun," and won't give a thought about problems hanging around. i guess that already explains why old problems are still at large. only members who realize the importance of this and that may voice out some concern.
yup, language too are among the main factor that's hindering any participation in forum. i've a friend who though speaks a considerable good english, but still find those opinions posted there too difficult to reply.
this makes nearly the whole issue sounded like 'forum is for elites'. what's more, i find many sections getting boring because there's no new (different from others) topics. it's like repeated programs in TV.
and still, "we are here just for fun," will remain. because since MT caters to all age internationally, anything can happen. every human has different attitude. it's not like running a country, where only elected ones are chosen to be part of it.
____________________________________-
but, naturally, people will work out this matter if there's something in return- that's the human nature. so, if there's a big reward, more people will participate in this hunt. say, double credit rewards for spams and so on, whereas 4 times credit rewards (so that members will have another half to download in order to check for low quality images).
well, go ahead with the contest. but first, make an announcement to see if there are other more opinions
we need to gather more ideas
hang on.....so, wanna a banner & avatar contest?
Forums will always be forums, no matter how we try to regulate it. The spam will always be there, the comparison threads of favourites which most probably generates meaningless discussion will be the source of the endless yapping and high reply rates. Sad, but true.
Recognition to the contest wise: perhaps the winner could put up a title in the siggy or something?
The forum always had problems because it's very difficult to balance out between "quantity vs quality".
While you can have very slow but wholesome discussion on one thread, that means lesser activity. A lot of the members' first language is not english either (and even for those who are native speakers), they might lose interest, not understand, or just are interested in other things.
So you are more interested in quantity- a variety of threads to post on and to generate credits and posts very quickly- the threads and forum gets more dynamic, and it's stimulating.
When I first was active in the community, ironically, it was by spamming in the "Chat Lounge" which used to be called the "spam lounge"
I met a lot
of friends in there- which is why it's there.
But yeah at the same time, our forums arent' exactly moving at a rapid rate either- and some of the threads are seriously un-cool if I may use that, in the sense that they are dupes and people have obviously not searched or read the FAQ / policy about "fave" threads and stuff like that. Not to mention people still bump very old threads.
So yep, kokuyu, you're completely right about the forums being of more concern than the gallery. But the problem about the forum and the gallery are very similar- I find the quality of the artworks being submitted has been relatively higher than before, but the majority of them are of average quality, while the really good works (which are rare) are of exceptional quality. I guess the same thing applies for the forum.
Unfortunately though, unlike the gallery, a forum cannot have a Sandbox. In fact, it's not as easy to improve the quality of posts in comparison to a skill or a technique you do hands on with on an image editting program. I guess the more you write the better you get- but most aren't willing to do that- or they don't realise it.
Later today I'll add on "Stop-rippers" to the page, and drop them a post.
More talk is needed about a banner and avatar contest (and spread the word out, too). We'll need some sort of recognition for the winner which needs to be sorted out, too.
After that, we'll be up and rolling
*does a
happy dance*
yup, agree too. there are more to know outside the world >____>"
in fact this is an open group-the same way MT is open internationally, not restricted by certain common interests...
did we left out http://stoprippers.minitokyo.net/ ?
before CSI-MT fits the purging list, we better cook up something there first. i guess the main problem nowadays is forum thing rather than wallies- commonly
wow~ O__O lower status mortals more active than admin.....that looks different from government administration
and i think he left out the new groups' frozen Statistics. but i'm more amused when this group has no gallery section, yet WOW..... invisible 448 items.....
Well, I guess CSI-Minitokyo was one of those groups created when we really needed reports for wallpapers and rips of anything in general. As I mentioned earlier, there are fewer reports on wallpapers (just as a general trend- not too sure why) so .... yeah. But we'll keep them affiliated because they linked us
I guess it'll have to be a competition beyond just the group
Last but not least, I've mentioned the art page and the moderators' names for the past... 3 months and left it on Sheq's to do list.
... he hasn't done it
;;
If I'm allowed to intervene; *ahem*
As it seems hosting an inter-group contest is unlikely to yield the desired results, therefore including outside members may seem to be the only option. HOWEVER! If that were to be, it would be best to give a large and proper credentials to that person.
I'm very sure that there are many out there who are more than willing to participate.
And uh, I think that CSI is already outta comission, so I'm not too sure if it is relevant anymore.
the bad news i have here immediately is i don't have photoshop
you got the point right to the facts. i'm not sure if there had been any announcement in this group, but we really tell the 'activeness' of members from how many respond posts.
maybe we can ask them through announcement. i can't think of anything yet since there are setbacks
btw, what happened to CSI-MT? it has bound to be dead, sadly
*rubs eyes* shyxsakura had already retired..why is she still working in anime wallie section?
Yes I did squash the sig-
as for a banner and avatar contest, that would work, however we will need to consider who's participating- only C-C members or more than that? Because from the list of the members we have, we have a few artists (though not many) and many seem content to be sitting "active" yet inactive at the same time with probably lower participation levels than before.
Input, anyone?
maybe there's a need to update the clarification of signature texts' lines.
merged: 04-11-2007 ~ 09:49am
Errr.... confusing though.....
eh, did you squash shin's sig just now, misa?
supposed we can organize a contest that involve members' participation, such as banner/avatar-making competition. that way we can keep this group from days of silent
... lol.
Then after seeing shin's sig, I don't actually know if we count empty lines or not
'
It is technically 4 lines with a space 
But
to be consistent... >.>
there're dupes here---> http://rozen-maiden-cantral.minitokyo.net/ & http://rozen-maiden-group.minitokyo.net/
the latter one is obviously inactive, which could be deleted. what do you think?
merged: 04-10-2007 ~ 09:37am
if the space between texts counts, then Shinsengumi's sig is questionable
maybe group skin is not needed now, since all-important is contents here. we need to enrich that
Actually I was thinking about what a nice logo would be and the easiest thing I could think of was 2 people holding hands. I vectored the hands off an Ai Yazawa scan I submitted about a month ago (more scans to come, btw
when I get
more time this week 
) and well, yeah~ I didn't know the Macca one was so similar 
I would say yes, the spaces in between the lines are lines- yeah? They'd count.
As for removing the inactive 20, well, I guess some of them might be active one day (well I know for a fact some really won't) but I don't think it'll be of any harm to keep them there. If we remove them, then there's no point in keeping the member roster on the page... but it's ultimately a group decision, I suppose- I'm not really in charge
I'm just the hired casual page cleaner 
I don't really know if we want a group skin- again this is a group decision
depends on
how many people are still on dialup and so forth-
bwahaha......did you 'accidentally' dig your psychic powers to create that logo (when it closely resembles McDonald's charity)?
maybe it's time to warn or remove the inactive 20, because they seem like going to no longer fit this group's objective. (gomen nasai for being meanie. but really, this group needs update refurbishment for strengthening its purpose too)
hmmm...do we need a group page skin too, aside from banner and avatar?
so, the sig's lines include the space between text too?
LOL I didn't realise it looked the McDonald's thing ahahahah
*rolls around laughing*
I'll go ahead and remove that sig
That is
more than 4 lines- err- actually, I'll just squash it to 4 lines 
From that list, there are 20 members missing because they are probably inactive. The list from the very beginning was a selctive list of those who were (most) helpful and active in the community- as far as I know, anyway.
you remind me of macdonald's charity.....
out of 53 members here (as seen in that list), what happen to other 20 more members?
merged: 04-07-2007 ~ 01:17am
check here>>> When is your birthday ? of post #8
this sig text looks too wide, don't you think so? (despite not more than 4 lines, yet looks like oversized)